THEY'RE BACK! JUDGE LYNN TOLER AND DR. ISH MAJOR WITH THE FIRST VERDICT

SPEAKER_03 0:00

She's seen it all from the bench. He's helped couples through it all. Now they're making the call on the internet's biggest relationship debates. Real relationships, real reactions, real talk. This is Judgment Call.

SPEAKER_05 0:19

Everybody, welcome to Judgment Call. This is Judge Lynn Toller, and I'm here with my brother from another mother, Dr. Ish. How are you doing, Ish?

SPEAKER_08 0:28

I am doing fantastic. Listen, I can't tell you how excited I am to finally be given a chance to do this with you. We've been talking about it for a long time. We talk about other people's podcasts for a long time and weigh in, but we've never kicked our own thing off. So I'm super psyched to be here.

SPEAKER_05 0:43

I am too. And we're always talking about we're in front of people, we're talking to people, but by but after we get through, we talk to each other about the people that we were talking to. And this is the part that you're gonna come along with today, because we're gonna we're gonna do it in front of you.

SPEAKER_08 0:59

Right, right. You got it. We're gonna let folks understand that, yeah, expert commentary is one thing, but the real cool part is what do the experts say when the cameras stop rolling? And so we're giving some folks some behind the scenes today. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:13

That's exactly what we're gonna do. Now I got a theme for the day. Theme for the day is communication. Communication is anything from love to money, it's everything. It's everywhere, negotiation. So we're gonna talk communication. So I'm gonna have Madison run the first run the first clip. Oh, we're going right into it. We're going right into it.

SPEAKER_04 1:38

Judgment call.

SPEAKER_01 1:47

And yeah, so today I booked my wedding. Um, I reserved everything and booked it, and um, I'm really, really excited. Um, it is a destination wedding. Let me just be clear. Everyone knew that was gonna be a destination wedding to begin with.

SPEAKER_05 2:02

So I texted um You know, I just want to say this. Let's be clear. Everybody already understood. I think that is the opening phrase to half of the confusion that we have in this world. You assume everybody knows what's going on, but you don't really know.

SPEAKER_06 2:19

So let's be clear.

SPEAKER_05 2:20

Well, we may not be clear. What everybody knew is hard to know because you don't know what everybody knew.

SPEAKER_08 2:28

That's right. That's right. I mean it's a super subtle point, but it is everything when it comes to diving into the rest of the conversation. We're starting off on a really, really big assumption. There you go.

SPEAKER_04 2:42

Judgment call.

SPEAKER_01 2:45

I'm excited, right? Finally, I've been engaged for four years. Like, I have waited a long time. I've saved money, like, I'm excited. Um, and most of my friends are totally excited. They're like, girl, it's been a long time coming. And then I was responded with some people saying, Oh, this is this is what you you went with, kind of thing. Like, oh, so this is actually happening.

SPEAKER_05 3:13

Oh, this is actually happening. So clearly, everybody wasn't clear. Everybody wasn't clear. You picked up on that part, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I do have to say one thing though.

SPEAKER_08 3:24

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_05 3:26

I feel a little unqualified to respond to this because I am a court low on estrogen, and I, for the life of me, have never understood why women get so exercised about a wedding. Now, you're a dude, so you may be disqualified too.

SPEAKER_08 3:41

But it was just Yeah, I don't know any guy who's ever dreamt his whole life about his wedding day. We just, that's not how, that's not how the masculine energy moves through a human being, right? It's just not. Now, I know a lot of feminine people who really grow up fantasizing about that day and they've got it in their mind, it's a dream day, and it's the day of all days, right? So I so I so I totally get that, but she's got there's some things happening here, Lynn. There's some things going on. First of all, it's a hard time on earth to sell a destination wedding. I mean, hell yeah. Who's going somewhere and how they're gonna pay for it? How are we gonna pay for that? How are we gonna have you seen the price of gas and jet fuel? It's a lot, it's a lot going on. So I don't know. That's that's the that's the hard sell right there because everybody, my when I my ears perked up when she said, I've been saving for this for four years. Okay, you've been saving for it. Uh I haven't been saving for anything because I'm not getting married.

SPEAKER_05 4:40

There you go, there you go. And the assumption, and that I've always thought destination weddings were a big ask. I mean, you're asking people to to dig deep down into their pockets and come up for your special day. I don't know.

SPEAKER_08 4:57

Right. So, and it's not just it's not just the money spend. I'm spending my time. Right. Where are we going? Because am I gonna have to take off work for this? Because now I'm spending money and now I'm losing money, and I'm losing the one thing I can't get back, which is time, right? So, so it's a big, it's a big inconvenience. You want to really find out who your friends are when you send out that invite list for destination.

SPEAKER_05 5:19

And that's exactly what she said. I'm gonna find out who my friends are. The way they responded to this wedding.

SPEAKER_02 5:24

So I think her wedding was a ten thousand dollar seven-day Disney cruise.

unknown 5:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 5:43

I love you, sir. I love you. I've known you forever. If you want to get married and you wanted 10,000 Disney Cruise, I'll send you a present, but I won't be there. 10 bands? Is that what she said? 10 bands.

SPEAKER_08 5:59

Bands, 10 whole bands. No, no, we're not doing that today. Not now. No, no, no. No, no, no. That's a that's a clout situation right there. That is a that is a status situation, that is a clout situation. This is about me showing you how wonderful my life is. It is literally a Disney movie. I am Ariel, I am Elsa, I am all of these beings, and that's what's happening. That ain't about nothing but that. Oh my god, I'm not doing 10K.

SPEAKER_05 6:31

Yeah, and she gotta ask herself, what kind of friend is she to ask her friends to choke up 10 grand so she can enjoy her day the way she wants to enjoy it. I've gotten a little hot.

SPEAKER_08 6:42

No, no, no, no, no. Here's what I'll do. Here's what I will do. Here's what I will do. I'll go to the Disney store and I'll send you a Mickey and a mini answer.

SPEAKER_05 6:51

And you send me the Lears and we'll blow it away. But you will not see me on the cruise. Well, and think about it.

SPEAKER_08 6:59

So if we're if we're being honest, right? 60, 70% of the families in this country right now today don't have an extra $400 in their bank account for a family emergency. They just don't. So we sure as shit don't have an extra $10K to go on a Disney cruise for seven days.

SPEAKER_05 7:13

That's such a huge ask. I it just blows my mind. I I can't I can't get next to it.

SPEAKER_08 7:19

That does. Not now. Now, now, Judge, now let me let me give you a little analysis. Okay. So there's some body language tells that she's got going on. When she when she started talking about what the friends were saying and how they were responding, her head cocked to the side and she's reminiscing about some things that got her to this point. And the very last thing you picked up on her, the very last thing she said was some of her friends were saying, So this is happening? Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 7:49

Maybe you didn't believe her. I mean, if you came to me and told me you were gonna invite me somewhere that I had to spend 10 grand, I would think you were either, you know, losing your mind or just telling a joke.

SPEAKER_08 8:04

I think the joke may be on us. Because here's the thing that I heard, right? My my psych ears perked up because when somebody says, Oh, is this happening? This is really happening, that means there was a point in time where I think I thought it wasn't gonna happen. Right. There's a reason people stay engaged for four years. There's a reason we don't set a date for four years. Now I want to know how long were you dating before those four years, right? Because if I'm your friend and you were engaged for four years and you're finally getting married, I'm like, oh, I figured they'd call it quits by now. I figured they would have voted, right? I figured somebody would have woke up, bailed, and figured out, okay, we're just kind of dragging our feet here. So I there's some backstory here and her head tilt, thinking about that backstory while she's telling me the current story.

SPEAKER_05 8:50

Communication, she should have listened to her friends more. I think her friends were probably telling her when she said this is really happening. The friends that told her something, he told her the man wasn't right, the price wasn't right, the cruise wasn't right, something wasn't right. And she didn't listen.

SPEAKER_08 9:05

Hey, you might as well call me is Bob Barker. Price ain't right.

SPEAKER_05 9:12

That is a good one, Madison. What do you got up for us next?

SPEAKER_02 9:15

Wait, one thing of absolutely amazing. Maybe what we can do here is like make the final judgment call. And then you guys throw this. Gotcha.

SPEAKER_05 9:23

What's the final now? Now, now, Ish, you seem more in tune with this young lady than I am. You you you you caught her head movement and all of that. You make the judgment call.

SPEAKER_08 9:37

I think the judgment call. Yeah, listen, I would never want to steal anybody's shine from that special day. Right? And it sounds like she's been waiting a long time, and you deserve to have it exactly how you want it, but that can't happen in a vacuum. If you want your friends and your family and the people who love you and want to celebrate you to be there, you've got to lay a road for them to do that. And 10K for seven days is probably not a place where a lot of people are gonna make that destination. So give them some options and then send out a poll on Instagram. Hey, I have three things I think we could do. We could do 10 days, we could do seven days for 10K, we could do three days for 3K, or we could do something right here just for my small group of friends and family, and see what the feedback is, and then work your dream magic around that. Because what she's gonna end up with is a big disappointment, a lot of resentment, and not a big support group going into that marriage. And you know you need that on the other side of that wedding. Lord have mercy to you. Judgment call.

SPEAKER_04 10:43

Judgment call.

SPEAKER_09 10:46

On today's episode of Why I Hate My Husband, this weekend we went to London for a hockey tournament. So much fun, exhausting. Um, the kids had a great time. We get home yesterday. I immediately start unpacking the bags, I sort the laundry, I start the laundry, I then go do groceries, I then come home and I make dinner, I then do bath time and movie time with the kids. Do you want to know what my husband did? Laid in bed the whole time. Guess who took today off and was also laying in bed this morning when I was doing the morning routine all by myself? My husband.

SPEAKER_05 11:29

Uh-oh, ish. Your gender has been accused. I feel I feel attacked right now. I think you should. I think you I think you should. She came for you.

unknown 11:39

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_08 11:41

Well, listen, I I've never been a wife and I've never raised kids. So I'm gonna throw this to you and see what's your what's your initial judgment call on just the the tone and the tenor of what I just heard.

SPEAKER_05 11:55

The tone is she's sick of it, but she's a delightful person. And she's not gonna, you know, now she may not come across like that to her husband, but she's just being funny about it, but she's sick of it and she's tired of it. And and what most women don't understand is you gotta make the ask, and the ask has to be a hard ask. And it can't be, I'm overwhelmed. Can't he see how much work I'm doing? I'll never forget there was one time I was cooking a meal, I had one kid over here doing homework, another kid over there doing homework. My son, my husband was watching baseball, the phone rings. Uh, I end up talking to the police, then my other son calls 911. I go to the door, and I'm like, and I look in the refrigerator and I said, There's no milk. No, my husband looked in the refrigerator and said, There's no milk. Uh-huh. And I was like, I was gonna turn around and light that brother up because I've been working and he'd been sitting and he said, and I said, Can you get me some? He said, Sure. Need anything else? So I had in my mind, I'm doing all of this work, had not spent any time asking that man a thing to help me to assist me. So I assume he assumed I was cool. That's right. But I needed to make the ask. And if you make the ask when you're not in, when you're not convey information, not your frustration. Don't say why can't you just sit? Couldn't you just pick this up? Didn't you see that over there? No, he didn't see it. I don't know why he didn't see it. I don't know what kind of peripheral blindness y'all got.

unknown 13:30

Right.

SPEAKER_05 13:34

But there's something going on there. Right, right. Look, what do you think of her tone though? What do you think of her tone?

SPEAKER_08 13:41

Well, I I think it was playful. I do believe she's a pleasant person for sure, because she there's some places she could have gone that she didn't go, but I heard the same exact thing that you heard, which was the absence of the ask. I didn't get the part where she asked him to help her. Because in our guy mind, right? Here's a classic scenario. Hey, your guy's sitting on the couch watching a ball game, right? He looks literally like he's the happiest person on earth. You walk up, you ask him, hey baby, what are you thinking? He says nothing, right? And he means it. It's true. It's true. We are literally sitting there thinking that the house is not on fire. There's nothing's wrong. Nobody called for me. Therefore, there's nothing for me to do right now. This is everything is fine. There's no ask. If you ask, we'll help, but until we get the ask, I'm gonna assume that everything is rolling along just fine. There's no warning lights on the dashboard, nothing to see here moving along.

SPEAKER_05 14:47

And I think after the ask needs to come the task. And that is, I can ask you every once in a while, but after four times, you should figure out that that's your gig. And if you haven't figured out that that's your gig, it's my gig to tell you that that's your gig. Like every day I'm doing all the rest of this, taking that down or taking that up or doing this, that's your gig.

SPEAKER_08 15:10

Yeah, yeah. You know what? I remember one time, a few years back, we were uh uh we were on set, and I heard you say one of the most brilliant things I ever heard anybody say in terms of relationships. You were like, I forget which couple you were talking to, and you say, Listen, you when you're talking to a man, you got to give him a hard target. Give him something to do. You can't ask for this nebulous thing, ask for a very specific thing and watch how fast he gets up and does it.

SPEAKER_05 15:36

Right. And they don't want to be, they don't want to be wrong, they don't want to be incorrect, they don't, you know what I mean, and all of this nebulous stuff. They don't know what to do. So if you give them something that they can handle, something simple. I'm not saying y'all are simple. I'm just saying.

SPEAKER_08 15:52

Oh, no, no.

SPEAKER_05 15:52

You should you should say it, and you would be right. I can't go out like that. That's your job. You gotta take over me. We are not. Did you do it?

SPEAKER_08 16:05

It's said it. We are we are ridiculously simple. We're men. We only need two things to show up for you every single day. Lord have mercy. What it is it? Tell me why you need me. Find a way, find a clever way in all of that energy of yours to remind me why did you need me today? Okay, got it. Understand. I know now I know why I'm in the room. And tell me what I can do to make you happy. That's the ask. What do you need? You need me to run to do I need to know milk, gas in the car, picking up somebody from daycare? What's the what's the thing I need to do today? Because inside, we all got that little, as a guy, we all got that little boy inside who's three years old, four, five years old. And I just made this hideous macaroni birthday card for my mom, and I'm sewing it to her, and I'm just trying to make her happy, right? Because she's the most important woman in my life, and now you are. Tell me the thing I can do today to make you happy. You want a macaroni birthday card? What are we doing? I'll do it if that's what you want, right?

SPEAKER_05 17:06

And it also reminds me of the thing I used to tell on people on divorce court all the time is like women used to say, if he loved me, he'd know. If he cared about me, he'd know. And that's the simplest thing one can say. I mean, it's it's it's not. Men and women are different. We're different for a reason. We think differently, we we hear differently, we communicate differently. Yeah, and uh for you to expect him to read your mind is is a little foolish.

SPEAKER_08 17:35

No, no. Well, it's the it's the Disney distortion, right? We watch all these rom-coms and all this. It's the Disney distortion because we watch so many romantic movies.

SPEAKER_05 17:44

Oh, watch, yes.

SPEAKER_08 17:46

Right? You have me at hello. You have me at hello, Judge. You didn't need to say anything. I just got it, right? You didn't have to work anything out, just you just you showed up. Right, right, right. Which goes back to the first video. She literally wants to get married on a Disney cruise. Right? She is in the Disney distortion, literally. She's living the Disney distortion, which we think things should automatically just happen like it does in a movie. Yeah, I've been taking acting classes for the last year. Acting class last night, Nika King, by the way. Shout out to Nika King. She's the mom on euphoria. Oh my god. Oh amazing, amazing actress. So she was saying, you gotta remember if you're watching a TV show, you're watching a movie, things are happening at an accelerated rate, and we're skipping steps. So there are things we're knowing and we're hoping that you, as an audience watcher, is gonna assume, right? So, but in a marriage, you can't skip those steps. Oh no. They skip the steps in the movie, otherwise, the movie would be 12 hours long. But in a marriage, in a relationship, you've got to have those conversations about what I need, what I want, and why I think I need you here today. You can't skip those steps.

SPEAKER_05 18:54

Yeah, and a whole lot of those conversations are unpleasant, are difficult, and hard to have, you know. Yeah. But you get through them, and once you have them enough, you get to a place where you can you can kind of ride it out. I mean, you never get to stop talking about them, ever. Right. You always have to keep talking about it because things change too much. But if you have the arguments early, I know.

SPEAKER_08 19:18

If you have them early, yeah, if you have them early, you know, most couples argue about the same three or four things over and over and over. Over and over. Same thing. 90%, same thing over and over again. And it's not the unprocessed or unit's not the unresolved problem, it's the unprocessed pain. Hey, remember that thing that hurt my feelings that time?

SPEAKER_05 19:35

I'm still not over it. And they never say that though. Sometimes they're not aware of that. They say something else, and they say something else, and and they never understand that they haven't told the person how they feel. They shared frustration, not information. I think I'm gonna make a judgment call on this one. What's that? And my call is she needs to make the ask. You know, she can be as pleasant and sweet as all she wants to be.

SPEAKER_07 20:06

That's right.

SPEAKER_05 20:07

But if you don't, if you don't handle your business, your business will handle you.

SPEAKER_08 20:13

As the young folks say, Judge, say less. Say less. Look at that, and because otherwise, life sounds good, right? My psych ears heard the other thing, which was we went on a soccer trip to London.

SPEAKER_06 20:34

That's pretty good. I'm so I'm so confused. I don't know what you're talking about, Ish.

SPEAKER_08 20:44

This last video. At the top of it, she said, we just got back from a soccer trip to London.

SPEAKER_05 20:50

You know, I didn't even remember that.

unknown 20:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 20:54

I'm okay.

SPEAKER_08 20:55

You ish, it don't count. If we're talking about how life is, well, you got you got some things covered in terms of life on Maslow's heart. We are not worried about the lights and food and gas in the car. If we are right, if we're taking soccer trips to London, that is a super optional expense. So there's a lot of things that are going well, hence her pleasantness, right? Life is pretty good. However, there's this one thing here I wish I could get better.

SPEAKER_05 21:21

Outstanding observation.

SPEAKER_07 21:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 21:23

Outstanding observation. And he's probably providing pretty well. But that was sexist on my part. She may be working too, or she may be providing pretty well. But I don't know if that's sexist.

SPEAKER_08 21:36

I don't know if that's sexist because his behavior says, right, when a man comes home and takes a nap, that's a man saying, Hey, I've done some things and I feel I feel entitled to these next two hours off.

SPEAKER_05 21:49

Well, Judge Roll, she's gonna have to actually uh ask and and and risk that unpleasant conversation. I think so. Madison has handed me. A Reddit. What you got?

SPEAKER_08 22:01

Uh-oh.

SPEAKER_05 22:02

Okay. It's gonna be a wild one. Am I the asshole girlfriend didn't consider us dating? So for girlfriend Wait, start that over again. Start that up. What was that first line? Am I the asshole? Girlfriend didn't consider us dating. Okay. Okay. So for girlfriend's day, I, 19 male, made a gift for my then 20 female girlfriend. I was going to surprise her with it, but before we went to give it to her, I texted her if she was my girlfriend in a playful and joking way, not being serious. She responded with not officially, no. To which I it was I'm sorry, I shouldn't have laughed. Because that's not funny. That's hurtful. But it was funny.

SPEAKER_08 22:48

It's kind of funny.

SPEAKER_05 22:50

To which I was immediately confused, and I thought she was messing with me. So after playfully brushing it off, she told me she was serious and that she didn't think we were dating. Keep in mind we have been officially dating for around six months. That's her opinion. And took a break due to an argument which was worked out afterwards. Now you got to take a break in the first six months. This is not looking good already. First six months, you're still supposed to be head over heels, anyway.

SPEAKER_08 23:21

Man, oh man, oh man. There's two things that don't work over text message. That is playfulness and sarcasm. That doesn't translate.

SPEAKER_05 23:30

It doesn't translate. It doesn't translate and I'll get you in trouble. Keep in mind we've been officially dating for around six months and took a break due to an argument which worked out afterwards, which resulted in us getting back together. Or so I thought. This conversation happened around two months after said break and amend, in which we told each other that we loved each other, did the whole good morning, good night, did you eat yet, stick, bought matching clothes and jewelry. She's met my parents and we've referred to each other as boyfriend and girlfriend. When confronted about this, she said that seeing me happy gave her hope for our future, that referring to each other as boyfriend and girlfriend was just easier, that we were working up to potentially having a relationship with each other, and that it was the win, and I was getting what I wanted, and assured me that this wasn't because she was seeing other people or something. I got really upset at her, told her that it was effed up, that she let me believe that, and didn't ever say anything, and pretty much have cut her off now. But since that day, I've been wondering if I was too harsh, am I the asshole for getting upset? Ish, is he the asshole for getting upset? I know what you're gonna say, but I'm asking you anyway. I don't I don't think he is.

SPEAKER_08 24:43

I don't think he is. No, I think it's a it's a unique dynamic because it's usually reversed in a male-female relationship, right? Month number six, Judge. You know this. That's the make or break month. Most guys, 90 90% of guys will not call you their girlfriend before six months. Will not do it.

SPEAKER_05 25:01

Did not know that.

SPEAKER_08 25:02

That is the unspoken rule. It's not happening. It's we're not meeting family. You're gonna maybe, maybe meet one of our boys, maybe one, maybe two, if they happen to be there. But that's a six-month thing. So usually it's the woman. I don't mean to be sexist, but it's usually the person with that feminine energy who's saying, Hey, what are we?

SPEAKER_05 25:23

Right in divorce court, when when we were talking about always the woman thought they were together long before the man thought they were together. Probably waiting his six months till he could call he could claim the girlfriendhood. I think she was kind of a jerk for not being upfront with him and for telling him, oh, it was just easier.

SPEAKER_08 25:52

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That sounds I don't, I don't, I don't, I, I don't like that. I don't like the fact that she was a little flip with it in the text message in terms of, you know, um, you know, it was she was a little too glib for me.

SPEAKER_04 26:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 26:05

I think she's he's asking a real question. He's he's doing the thing, he's he's eliciting information. Hey, I'm I'm about to do a thing for you. I'm just really trying to get some idea of where we stand, so that tells me how big or how not big I need to do this next thing.

SPEAKER_05 26:19

And he was uh he was having an honest ask, and it sounds like he really likes yeah, he really, really does. And he was being playful and he was planning something out, and for him to just for her to just give him one of these, just like that, you know.

SPEAKER_08 26:32

Yeah, was that was a little that was a little glimpse for me.

SPEAKER_05 26:36

And she was a little dishonest, I think, too. Right uh when they got back together, you know. She just let him believe that they were back together, as opposed to that's what she really felt, you know.

SPEAKER_08 26:49

So and again, that's the reversal of the dynamic. So now the man trick is I'll never have to tell her I'm her boyfriend just because she says it, that don't mean it's true because I never said it. So I'll just let it roll on.

SPEAKER_05 27:03

I didn't correct her.

SPEAKER_08 27:06

Right. I won't correct her, I'll leave that empty space, and she can fill it up with whatever she wants. Because when the rubber meets the road and we have to have that conversation, and you say, No, no, no, I was your girlfriend. I now get to say, I never said, Yeah, I know I just didn't correct you. Right. And so that is that is that nasty, as as Bugs Bunny used to say, Ah, what a dirty trick. That's that dirty trick that relationship happens sometimes where you don't tell the person where you stand, but you just let them fill in the gap.

SPEAKER_05 27:40

Let them live in the yeah, and then that's exactly what she's in. So, young man, you are clearly not the asshole. Judge Raspberry on your end. Same way, not the asshole.

SPEAKER_08 27:52

Same way he's not the asshole at all. He's a sensitive guy, he might be like me. That sounds like a letter I wrote years ago. But you gotta understand, my birthday is June 28th. I'm a cancer, I feel everything.

SPEAKER_05 28:08

Well, we won't make you go into that ish. I love you too much for that.

SPEAKER_08 28:14

Now, wait, so did they stay together? What did the Latin last bit say? Are they still together or no? I don't think it really says.

SPEAKER_05 28:24

It doesn't really say. Yeah, she kind of she he kind of just trailed off. He's just am I the asshole for getting upset?

SPEAKER_08 28:34

So the letter follows the form of the relationship. We don't really get any definite answers, huh?

SPEAKER_05 28:38

Oh, mm-mm. No, yeah.

SPEAKER_08 28:40

Oh yeah, yeah. I like I need to I need I want to introduce him to a thing called the button. He needs to know how to put a button on.

SPEAKER_05 28:47

Button on it. Yep.

SPEAKER_08 28:48

Right? Are we let it in? Right? Oh, let it in. Are we girlfriend or boyfriend, or are we just dating? Put a button on right, put a button on that Reddit letter, homeboy. Give me, right? Give me give me something to hang my hat on and feel good about the advice we're giving you today.

SPEAKER_05 29:04

She should have written in and asked if she were the asshole.

SPEAKER_08 29:07

Right, right. Then it would have made more sense.

SPEAKER_05 29:09

Then it would have made more sense because it didn't make sense when he wrote it because he was just a nice kid.

SPEAKER_08 29:14

He was being a nice guy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which is which is rare these days.

SPEAKER_05 29:17

Yeah. Well, I'm not gonna say that. Madison, you can say it right now. Madison, what we got up next?

SPEAKER_04 29:26

Judgment call.

SPEAKER_00 29:29

Three years ago, I was strongly considering divorce, and I want to talk to you about why. So I'm gonna tell you the story of the day where I thought to myself, maybe I don't want to do this anymore. My husband and I had four kids. We both worked full-time. We had been together for 16 years at this point. We've been together since high school. Um, and on paper, I have an amazing husband. He's incredibly supportive, he's kind, he's loyal, he's a great dad, he's very hands-on, he's an active participant, he's always present. Like on paper, what else could I ask for? Um, but in reality, my experience is very similar to the experience of other women. I had this amazing husband who on paper was great, but I was incredibly frustrated and burnt out from our marriage and from motherhood. Because what happens to so many of us is that we marry these amazing men and we have amazing relationships, and then we have kids. And when we have kids, women tend to carry a disproportionate amount of the work in the home, the work of raising kids, and the mental load. And that is exactly what happened to us. About three months after my fourth baby was born, I remember looking at my husband and saying, I need more. I need you to do more. I am exhausted. I am in charge of everyone and everything in this house. Every night, when we cook dinner, you ask me what to make. Every day, when you drop off the kids at daycare, you ask me what they need in their backpacks. I am the project manager of this home and I need you to do more. And he looked at me and he said, Okay, just tell me what to do. Right? Every woman has heard this. Just tell me what to do and I'll do it. And I said, Okay, you know, something that would make my life easier is if in the mornings, when I came downstairs with the four kids, because I do mornings by myself, the dishwasher was emptied, the dishes were put away, and the trash was taken out. That would make my life so much easier because when I've got the four kids running around and the baby crying, I can't be looking for their favorite water bottle in the dishwasher. I just need to know it's clean. And he said, Yeah, of course. What yeah, I'll do that. That's no problem. And so, of course, he does it, but then I have to remind him, and then he forgets, and then I have to remind him again. And there was this one morning where I woke up and I went to put something in the trash and it was overflowing, and I went to get my son's water bottle, and it was in the dishwasher with all the other clean dishes, and I felt so disrespected and unseen and unvalued at that point in time. And I remember texting my husband being like, What happened? Like, why didn't you do this? And he said, sorry, I was running late for work. And I remember thinking, oh my god, he doesn't see me because what he's done has now made me late for work. And he doesn't care about that. He doesn't care about the impact on me, and he doesn't see how every single thing in our home happens because I ask him to do it, or because I do it myself, or because I planned and organized it. The diaper bag is full because I filled it, right? I put the wipes in there. And I felt so frustrated. And I remember thinking, what's the point? What's the point of doing this with someone else? I might as well just do it alone. And it's not because my husband didn't love me or he did anything to me, and it's not because I didn't love him, but because I felt so taken advantage of in our relationship and this dynamic. It doesn't happen by accident, right? It's not like my husband did it to me. But we've been raised in this society that tells men and women who they should be in marriages and what it looks like to be a good mom versus a good dad. And we know the bar for moms is way up here and the bar for dads is way down here. And we fell into these norms. We fell into these uh roles in our family despite the fact that we never wanted to. And I'm lucky, and I say lucky because I have a partner who I know loves me and wants me to be happy and was willing and able to change. And so we did the work to figure out what equity looked like in our relationship. And I can tell you now, three years later, that we are happier than ever. Our kids are thriving, our home runs like a well-oiled machine, and that took a lot of work. I want to say it took like 18 months to get there, and it was well worth it. But it is not uncommon. And so if your wife is coming to you and she's saying, I am burnt out by the mental load and I need you to do more, she's not just saying that because she wants you to do more tours. She's saying that because truly, it can hurt your relationship, it can ruin your marriage if you do not participate in an equitable way in your home. And so, what does that look like? What does it look like to change these dynamics? But we need to really assess in our homes what the work looks like. Because in most homes, this the the the data supports this. Women do a disproportionate amount of the work. They just do. They do more of the cooking and the cleaning and the laundry and the did we go did she get cut off?

SPEAKER_05 33:54

Yeah, I think we're just she was just saying too much. I cannot say this.

SPEAKER_08 34:04

The two words that the word the word the word deluge comes to mind.

SPEAKER_05 34:14

But one of the two words I thought were most important was mental load. Yeah, and it's not just about the number of tasks. And I used to get this in divorce court all the time. It's not just about the number of tasks that you're doing in the house. It's that you have to be, you manage everything in the house. You're running it, you know what has to happen and what has to go and what has to happen. And it's it's more difficult than just doing the task. You are managing an entire network of people, many of whom do not want to be managed. They're small, they're they're messy, and the other one's big and messy. So, but the mental load is really huge. And I think a lot of women, a lot a lot of men don't understand when women say that mental load about how much we have to stay on top of any given day.

SPEAKER_08 35:07

Yeah, you know what? I'm uh let me hear some more about that because I think the the complaint, the thing that the thing that was hurting her, I think a lot of moms and a lot of women really resonate with that. So let me let me hear some more about that mental load.

SPEAKER_05 35:21

It's just that it is so difficult. You have to make sure that everybody is getting where they're going and doing what they're doing. So I know everybody's, I know how everybody's feeling, who's hungry. I remember one time I left the house, came home, and I said, What was for lunch? And they said, Well, he didn't ask for lunch. I said he's five. Give him lunch. You don't have to ask. You have to manage everybody's life and from beginning to end, from clothing to feeding to where they're going, to what they're doing, to homework, to this, to that, to the other thing. And when you're managing all of that, it's very, very stressful. And don't let us drop a ball. You know what I mean? We drop a ball, and then the whole plate goes.

SPEAKER_08 36:04

Whole whole house of cards come down. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 36:06

It all comes down because we were holding it up with one hand.

SPEAKER_08 36:10

Yeah, yeah. So that's a that's a lot. I I can tell that they have done a lot of work. She's using a lot of the right therapeutic words. When you talk about mental load, marital equity, right? That's a very therapeutic term. We all we want this thing to be balanced and that can look different for every different couple uh for sure. So I like the fact that she's doing that. Um, yeah, I think a couple things. When I hear her talking about that mental load, it really reminds me, you know, in the last few years I've been doing a lot of work with some of the um uh formerly incarcerated folks who are coming home, they've been in prison, they're coming home, now they're kind of getting reacclimated to life, trying to re-enter their world. And one of the surprising things for me that they would say is they were like, Doc, you know, I, you know, this is this is a lot. Number one, it's been a long time since I've been out here in the world, and there's a lot of new things I gotta get up to speed on. Uh, but what they're but one of the things really struck me. So one guy told me, is uh Mike, I'll never forget. He was like, he was like, you gotta understand, man, for the last 10 years, I only had to make three, maybe four decisions a day. And now, now I gotta make damn near 50. Overwhelming. And I'm and it's overwhelming. I'm exhausted. So when I hear you and her talk about that mental load, she's deciding when is it time to fill the bag? What is gonna go in the bag, who needs to eat what, who needs to be where when it's a it's all the decisions that have to go into making it look like I got it under control.

SPEAKER_05 37:43

There you go. And I do, I I gotta applaud her though, because she said it took her 18 months, but they kind of got it worked out. And I think that's one key thing is it takes time to work something that big out. You can't have an argument and fix it. You can't, you know, making the ask is just the beginning. Then you have to go for the task, and then you have to to go for a change in in the level and amount of management work that you have to do. And and she did it, and maybe it took her 18 months because she talked too much.

SPEAKER_08 38:16

I don't know because listen, I'm gonna say uh uh I'm speaking for the man delegation. We can't listen that long. We cannot. Hey, listen, you were bothering me. So hey, you know how much I talk. Now, I hear so that's so so the the voluminous amount of verbiage is an issue. So, but the other thing that's an issue for her is she's got an issue with truth telling, also, right? How so? And she's well, because in the first part of her of her diatribe, she said two times on paper, he's perfect. On paper, it's amazing. We married, and then she said another word three times. We married these amazing men, and my husband is amazing, and his marriage is amazing, right?

SPEAKER_05 39:02

It was amazing, and it was perfect, it was on paper.

SPEAKER_08 39:06

But it's not, yeah, it's not, and you don't need to perform for that audience of one on the off chance that he watches your TikTok today. You don't have to perform for him. You can tell the truth about it. Yes, I love him, it is good, and there are things we need to work on.

SPEAKER_05 39:20

Yeah, you married a flawed individual. And that's okay. Yeah, you married a flawed individual, and that's fine because we're all flawed individuals. We're all flawed. And and the thought of amazing and beautiful and perfect sometimes gets you into a mindset. Well, why isn't this, why isn't this better? You have to work at it like a job. Exactly.

SPEAKER_08 39:38

Exactly. You know what? Uh, our dear friend, I heard from uh a few weeks ago, CeeLo Green, the music machine. And he was right, and he was saying, he was like, he was like, Ish man, you know, uh, he was telling me about a you know a situation with him and his son, and he was like, you know, but we're all allowed our moments of humanity. I was like, yeah, you know, we can we can be great people, we can be great, and we can have some moments when we are showing up amazing. We've all seen it, and then we can have some moments where we can be deeply flawed and have some stuff we still need to work on, and it doesn't diminish any of the other stuff.

SPEAKER_05 40:10

Yeah, it's fun talking to C-Lo. He's so lyrical, right?

SPEAKER_08 40:13

So lyrical. Everything he says sounds like it should be a song. Everything you know, his son's doing music now.

SPEAKER_05 40:20

Oh, I did not know that.

SPEAKER_08 40:22

I did not project together. Yeah, it's really good. His son's more of a rocker kind of guy, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 40:29

Oh, that's interesting.

SPEAKER_08 40:30

Yeah, it's super cool.

SPEAKER_05 40:32

So, what's the judgment call on this one, Ish?

SPEAKER_08 40:35

The judgment call on this one is we gotta applaud her because they did it right. You know what I mean? She didn't, she it wasn't more, she didn't come in too hot and make it more than what it was. She didn't come in too low and go too long without asking. She was like, look, this is the thing. We're gonna work at it. We're gonna, as as every good psychiatrist and psychologist will say, reinforce behavior over time, right? Because it takes time to change our behavior. It doesn't, it doesn't happen in one month, right? So I think she did it right. My judgment, she did well done is my judgment on that one.

SPEAKER_05 41:07

Well done. I'm right with you, Ish. We got another uh, we got another Am I the Asshole from Reddit, okay?

SPEAKER_08 41:14

Well, I like these.

SPEAKER_05 41:15

Yeah, I do too. Am I the asshole because I refuse to finish a story if my husband interrupts? That's all I really have to ask. My husband insists on interrupting any story I tell while he is present to either correct me or to add to it. The latest example was today. We are visiting his parents for Easter, and I was telling him that our plans for our summer vacation this summer. You know, I'm an amingles major from Harvard. I'm just saying. We are doing a Mediterranean cruise. I was saying how it starts in Rome, and he interrupted me to say it was a cruise from the Greek Isles, which it is, but it starts out in Rome. So I stopped talking and let him finish the story, which he doesn't know. He doesn't know any of the ports or calls or excursions. Literally, all he knows is that the cruise starts and ends in Rome. He kept pressing me to add information. I politely declined. I said he was so anxious to talk about how the cruise started in Rome, he must know all about it. So go ahead and talk about it. Now, you tell me, was he manplaining her or was there something else going on in that dynamic?

SPEAKER_08 42:34

Look, we got listen. First of all, I love this question. I do, I do, just because I can hear the frustration in her voice. You know what I mean? I got an older sister who would do the exact same thing. You interrupt her story, she is done talking for the next hour. This is setting it down. So there's a couple ways we can look at it. On the on the bright and shiny and hopefully end is my goodness, he really enjoys your stories and he's looking for a way to participate and be a part of it and come on along for the ride, right? He loves your story so much, he wants to jump in and just be along for the ride. That's one way.

SPEAKER_05 43:09

You don't believe that, do you? I'm taught to be as off the gate on that one. Is that your judgment call? Is my judgment call on your on what you just said?

SPEAKER_08 43:22

Now, the other way, yeah, it could be some man's thing. I'll tell you what, if we're giving him the benefit of the doubt, you know what I've noticed here a lot lately? There's a lot of folks out here in this world who are in part or a little bit on the way, on the spectrum, and they cannot tolerate things that aren't quite right. If you're telling a story, it's gotta be a lot of my autistic a lot of my autistic kids, their parents come in and are telling me the history, and they can't finish the story because the autistic kid is like, oh, yeah, no, no, no, actually, it was a Tuesday. It wasn't it wasn't Wednesday. And it was actually at 6 30, it wasn't like at five, like you said. Because in their mind, it's got They gotta have the details right. So it makes me wonder. I don't know. I don't know this guy. He could be doing the jerky mansplaining, and I'm just gonna take over the story kind of thing. But it makes me wonder if we're not missing something there. Because if he does it all the time and can't pay attention to her behavioral cue that she shuts down when he does it, then something's happening there.

SPEAKER_05 44:21

I don't believe you. I won't agree with you. I think this man is just he loves the spotlight. And she did all the planning, she did it all. He wanted to sound important and everything. He just didn't have the information to do it. And he wanted, she wanted, he wanted to be the leader and have her fill in the blanks. That's what I believe. I can't give him a I can't give him a pass like that without more information.

SPEAKER_08 44:51

He could have had one port or one excursion. He could have known that.

SPEAKER_05 44:55

All he knew was it started and ended in Rome. That's not a lot.

SPEAKER_08 45:01

So okay, so okay, so I like that judgment. What should be her ask? What should be her ask? Because at some point, she's just gonna she's gonna keep shutting herself more and more off. See, and she's not he's gonna hold half days when she doesn't talk at all at this at this rate.

SPEAKER_05 45:19

I always believe, and I just tell these people in divorce court, is you uh you raise it when it's not an issue. So one day, you know, and you raise it after something's been wonderful. So good sex, great meals, sitting down there. You know, remember that time you tried to tell that story about us going to the Greek Isles? Remember, and be funny with it. That's how I used to do it. Don't do that anymore. And it's not gonna work the first time, but don't yell and fuss and carry on. She's not an asshole for drive for she's not the asshole for uh shutting down, but she's not solving her problem by shutting down.

SPEAKER_08 45:58

Yeah, yeah. I want to lift something out what you just said right there, because I want to make sure folks at home got it when you said raise it when it's not an issue. That's huge. Timing is everything.

SPEAKER_05 46:10

Timing is everything when you and communication, timing, tone, and topic. I always say it. If you go into it at the wrong time, there's no value in it. I used to people always like fussing at drunk people. Why fuss at drunk people? They're drunk, they will not understand you. Right, right.

SPEAKER_08 46:29

Tomorrow they're not gonna remember the conversation.

SPEAKER_05 46:32

Anyway, all they'll remember is the fight.

SPEAKER_08 46:34

Yep. Yep, exactly. Exactly. Yeah, yeah, I think so. We raise it, and it's again, it's uh, you know, it's it's it's classic reinforcement of behavior. How do you how do you stop a three-year-old from having tantrums? Well, you ignore the tantrum, and the second they do something that you want, right? They put a toy away, they come and tell you, they use their words. You're like, oh my god, you're such a big boy. You used your words. Yep. And they're gonna do more of that. Yep. Positive reinforcement, and that's and it's the same way. She's got to do the same thing. She's got to do the exact same. Ignore the thing when he does it, and the second it's not an issue, and he does it the right way you want, you throw him a parade all the way to Rome and all the way back, all the way through the Greek Isles on the excursions and everything.

SPEAKER_05 47:22

So Judge McCall is she is not the asshole.

SPEAKER_08 47:28

She is not the asshole. She is not. No. No. Maybe some psych testing for him. Let's make sure he's not autistic.

SPEAKER_05 47:36

That's the psychiatrist in you, ish.

SPEAKER_08 47:40

I'm always looking for the other thing. Is it the other thing?

SPEAKER_05 47:43

I'm just looking to find people guilty. I had a good time, Ish.

SPEAKER_08 47:50

I don't know about you. I did. Listen, it's always a good time whenever, whether we're just talking on the phone or doing something like this together, it's always a good time. I think um what folks probably don't know about us. I'm a private person, I know you are too. What folks probably don't know about us is in real life, we are dear friends. Dear friends. In real life, these are conversations we have. In real life, both of us find most things just a little bit funny, or we are we're able to take a painful thing and use some humor to find our way through that.

SPEAKER_05 48:19

Absolutely. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_08 48:21

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, so so uh so I like the idea of folks being able to get a get a glimpse of that, right? We can we are everybody's whole people, right? We are super professional over here, but we're also real people over here. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 48:33

And we learn a lot from each other because we generally have the same perspective on things, you have such a deep depth of knowledge in an area that I don't know anything about. And it and it and it allows me to learn.

SPEAKER_08 48:45

So right, right. And I like to equivocate. You make a hard judgment call, right? Are you guilty or you're not? Are you going to jail today or are you not?

SPEAKER_05 48:55

I can't equivocate on the bench, you know. So, like I said today, uh our issue is communication. And I think we saw a lot of different problems with communication. We saw some good communication. Uh, but timing, tone, and topic. I mean, you have to be careful when you say it, how you say it, and what you're trying to say.

SPEAKER_08 49:21

I agree. I agree. It's like it's like giving a medication, timing and dosage. It's gotta be the right time, it's gotta be the right dose. And I tell folks all the time, right? Imagine you're watching a tennis match. The ball's gotta go back and forth. Right. One person doesn't serve five times in a row, they don't hit the ball back, something is wrong. And that is, as my sister in the FBI would say, that is your indicator to ask more information. You know? Absolutely.

SPEAKER_05 49:46

Absolutely. I enjoyed it today, uh, Ish. And if you guys enjoyed it, and you have something you want us to weigh on on so we can make a judgment call on what you're doing, please drop us a line.

SPEAKER_03 49:57

She's seen it all from the bench. He's helped couples through it all. Now they're making the call on the internet's biggest relationship debates. Real relationships, real reactions, real talk. This is Judgment Call.